Ölmönger Special: Interview with Sami Keinänen from Hops United

As some - probably most - of the readers know, Finland is a country where you can buy beer with higher than 4,7 % abv only from the national monopoly Alko or from restaurants with serving licenses. It's also legal to order beer from a European online store when we're talking about distance sales: the store organizes the delivery and pays the customs and taxes to Finland. But. Most - I could say almost all - online beer stores abroad only pay the taxes to the country they operate from, not to Finland.

Except one: Hops United in Tallinn, Estonia. The reason behind the exception is that there's a Finn working behind the virtual desk, Mr. Sami Keinänen, Chief Beer Officer of Hops United. Shortly the idea is to sell beer online, deliver it to the nearest R-kioski of the customer and pay the taxes to Finland. The online store started in the end of 2015 and the collection is growing all time. I had a pleasure to meet Sami in person shortly in November and later interview him make by e-mail.

But enough with prologue - from now on I ask some questions and Sami tells the story!

* * *

Hello, Sami! What is your story, in general and concerning beer? How did you end up starting Hops United?

Born and raised in the Arctic Circle in the 70’s. My first experience with beer was in the late 80’s. (Sorry, now you know. I’m sure you knew already.) And there weren’t too much to choose from. All lager, lager, lager. I remember trying different brands, Lapin Kulta, Karjala, Koff, whatever there was available. It was all rather terrible to be frank and I figured beer is just not my thing.

And it was like that until I travelled to Ireland in ‘93 and got in touch with local bitter and real ales. I really liked that and I still enjoy a pint of bitter a lot. I’m a big fan of British pub culture as a whole and actually ended up living in the UK for couple of years, not too far from Young’s Brewery in Wandsworth, London.

Anyhow, fast forward, couple of years ago, we had just finished a wine shop, Vino Nostrum, at a company I used to work at. I figured we might as well create a webshop for beer since I have some experience with online shop, some experience with beers and branding. Although I’m by no means a beer expert. In addition, I’m family man with small kids, who enjoys having a good bottle of Russian Imperial Stout in the evening. There was a problem to be solved.

What's the business idea of Hops United? How does it differ from the other online beer shops?

To begin with, we’d be Finnish company, but as you know, that’s not possible. Our idea is all about the easiness. There are so many choices people need to make on daily basis and we figured that buying beer should be made easy. I’m not saying we’re necessarily there yet. Also, of course, we wanted to provide a sales channel for Finnish craft beer, since it is somewhat tricky to sell your beer in Finland.

Hops provides beer cases like playlists, you do not need to be an expert with IBUs and whatnot. Case of good beers delivered to home door or alternatively to the nearest pickup point (R-Kioski at the moment) in Finland. I feel very much we’re like an independent record label, against all odds. At least in a sense we’re not doing this for the money, and for sure: no one is getting paid 40k a month. This is not a primary business for any of us — at least not at the moment.

Speaking of which, there’s Finland and Finnish alcohol monopoly… where to begin? Many companies go to Estonia in order to avoid Finnish taxation. We are actually the opposite. We pay all the taxes to Finland and we had to go Estonia in order to do so. And this is something what people do not understand. I wouldn’t understand it myself to be frank. We pay exactly the same taxes like Alko does, therefore we really can’t compete with the price. We have a warehouse in Estonia, but if you want to legally sell alcohol to Finland, you need to pay the local taxes.

Lastly, we really take customer care seriously and I’d say we’re doing pretty good job there.

Sami at Õllenaut brewery in Tallinn

The company operates from Tallinn, Estonia and has great Estonian breweries and beers in the selection. Which Estonian breweries would you still like to add to the selection, if there are any?

Obviously Põhjala and Sori would be great additions, maybe some day. We’ve recently added heaps of Pühaste beers of which I’m personally very happy about. Vaat, Tanker, Lehe, Purtse, Anderson.. There are plenty of interesting players in Estonian craft beer scene.

What else than Estonian beers are essential or special in your selection, breweries or beers that really stand out? By the way, is Bell's Brewery in the selection permanently for now? Both Two Hearted Ale and Expedition Stout are top of the art brews and not too easy to get elsewhere, so thanks.

You very welcome, we are equally happy about Bell’s, and especially their Expedition Stout is also personal favourite. Our selection relies on local breweries and Estonian importers. I’m especially happy about our Belgian beers selection. There are gems like Westvleteren 12 & 8, Orval, Rocheforts and other classics. They never let you down, nor they never go out style. We’ve imported some Finnish craft beers but it’s a bit too expensive I’m afraid. I really hope we are able to do that more in the future. Oh, and Ola Dubh. Blimey!

How did beers from The Flying Dutchman end up in the selection? Got the first contact to the brewery through Hops United - that's why I'm asking.

We have a mutual friend with Ronald de Waal who mentioned that he's back in business, so we had a pint together and had a really nice evening. Everything went super smooth and within a week we had a first batch of Flying Dutch on the shop. If all the business would be as easy as it is with The Flying Dutchman..

...and Sami at Tanker brewery in Vaida.

Can we expect changes in the selection or in the way that Hops United operates in the near future? Can you tell us about them?

The biggest update is the Finnish language version which we are releasing in the near future.

One of our biggest challenges is that majority of the people think what we do is illegal. It’s not - unless they change the law in order to "protect people". I hope it helps to communicate these things also in Finnish.

There will be more collection points available, currently we have all the R-kioskis around Finland which is already pretty good.

I would like to order 12 great different beers from Hops United. Recommended by you. Today. What would you put inside my box?

Excellent question! Pühaste Dekadents, Pühaste Humalakoda, Ola Dubh 18, De Dochter van de Korenaar Embrasse, Victory Art Brew Ivan, Mikkeller Beer Geek, Tanker/Van Moll Animal Instinct, Bell’s Expedition Stout, Õllenaut Turbahunt, Rochefort 6, Vaat Jailhouse, Õllenaut Wahtula… a quite stoutish case. Ask me again tomorrow - it'd probably be quite different.

What are the best things in your job as the Chief Beer Office of Hops United? What's worst?

It’s probably easier to start with the worst. Majority of what I spend my time with has to do with bureaucracy, accounting or some sorts of IT-issues. And I’m afraid I’m not the best at accounting. Excel is not really my cup of tea. We report the amount of alcohol in centilitres to Finnish customs every month and there’s are divided into different categories based on the annual production of a respective brewery. It’s a bit of kerfuffle and I know breweries have had their share of bureaucracy. You really need to be passionate about beer and stubbornness helps.

The microbrewery boom started in Finland and Estonia at about the same time not long, just a few years ago. What are the biggest differences in the environment, where the breweries work, and in the beers that they produce? How would you compare the national and international success of Finnish and Estonian breweries?

I think people are quite like-minded in both sides of the Gulf of Finland. Most of the people are in it for fun, some people are more serious and business oriented than others. Generally speaking, Estonian breweries tend to be more internationally oriented than Finns. Generally. Of course Põhjala has been massively successful and the success has helped others well.

Quality control at the warehouse...

There's been a great change in the beer scene in the big picture during the last ten years. In Finland, we run a bit behind as usual, so the boom has been on like three years. Can you tell us something about your thoughts on Finnish beer culture? Where are we now? Where should we be in, say, 2020?

My two cents. We have over 100 breweries at the moment, which is still less what we had in the early 20th century, but only a few will become business as such. But maybe that doesn’t matter, people having fun brewing beer. I think there’s a lot who consider it as a hobby. A bit like playing in a band. And punk band to be more specific, everyone can join, no previous experience required. I reckon that’s culturally interesting.

I’m hoping microbreweries will bloom in 2020. Hops shortage and market price might have an affect on this however. We need more hop farmers. Business-wise, things are getting more serious all the time, like in any business area, which is wild wild west at first. Major breweries will keep on acquisitioning small ones and we’ll see more consolidation. Not sure how much this will happen in Finland.

 

Finnish alcohol legislation is under reform that will go through in spring 2017. If the reform will go through as planned, changes include e.g. that beers and other alcohol drinks with max 5,5 % abv can be sold in grocery stores and microbreweries can sell out their beers with max 12% abv from their own premises. An honest opinion: what's wrong in Finland's alcohol politics? Is there something good?

What’s wrong with Finnish alcohol politics? That’s a big question.

The 0.8% raise seems to be the root of all evil to come in the future. I simply don’t believe in monopoly model. Every country has alcohol related problems and it’s always a small minority of people who cause majority of the issues. Also in Finland, whether we have monopoly or not. And even, if we’d go back to prohibition era, we’d have alcohol related problems. Quite likely even more then.

Monopoly or prohibition won’t solve these issues. I don’t want to glorify alcohol, but wherever there’s people, there’s bound to be problems. Mystifying alcohol will only make it worse. But as said, this is a big issue. I'm not at all denying alcohol related problems, I’m questioning the means. The discussion about alcohol is mostly discussion about alcohol related problems. There’s so much more.

There's an ongoing marketing war both globally and locally between micro- and macrobreweries. What do you think of it?

I’d say that’s a “good war”. Brewdog was absolutely spot on with their “beer market is sick and we’re the cure” mission. Now obviously they have become one of the big ones and they need re-position themselves. Supporting local food and beer, is a megatrend that’ll hopefully continue in the years to come.

...and random picks from a happy customer's last order.

An easy question to a good friend of great beer: what is your favorite beer? Why? Ok, let's make it less impossible: name the top three of the last two months.

Not easy at all. Frankly I do not consider myself as a beer expert. To me it’s very much the same as in music. It really depends on the mood, company I’m with, weather, etc. Generally speaking I’m very much of a Imperial Stout guy and you can’t go wrong with Trappist beers. For now I list these 3:

• Pühaste Dekadents
• Rochefort 10
• Tanker/Van Moll Animal Instinct

Let's play a little. If you had to pick any beer style for a Hops United's own brand beer, which would they be? What would you expect from the taste? Could this beer really be available in your online store someday?

Most likely barrel-aged Imperial Stout. I like simple ingredients and when you get that first sip of great brew and it kicks in, I feel very much alive. It’d be something like that. For sure, it’d be great to have on our store!

Final question: what song would you name the one that matches Hops United?

Tom Waits: I Don’t Wanna Grow Up.

We'll play the song. Thanks for the interview, Sami!

* * *

So, this far I've reviewed a bunch of beers ordered from Hops United, for example:

• Vaat Jailhouse Brew
• Õllenaut Brikett
• Tanker/Van Moll Animal Instinct
• The Flying Dutchman More Complicated Than Your Girlfriend

... and of course, the goodies from Bell's Brewery: Two Hearted Ale and Expedition Stout.

There'll surely be more to come. Meanwhile - go shopping and enjoy!

Ölbeat

A voice soaked in bourbon, hanged in the smokehouse and ran over with a car? Well, who could disagree. But there's certainly a hook in Waits' voice.

Tom Waits: I Don't Wanna Grow Up (YouTube)

From the 1992 album Bone Machine, the song was written by Tom Waits and Kathleen Brennan.

Ölmönger Special: Interview with The Flying Dutchman Ronald de Waal

So, last week in the blog was a week of beers with unusually abnormal names. They all were from The Flying Dutchman Nomad Brewing Company: one saison, one amber, one stout and three hopped ales (1, 2, 3). So now we take a closer look at the brewery and the brewer.

I was one "player" in a Tweet thread that started playing with the names of the beers that The Flying Dutchman Nomad Brewing Company should brew. The brewer himself - Ronald de Waal - took nicely part in the game, as "the referee". I think we finally got something like 15 new names for his brews, most of them unfortunately uneligible for commercial use.

After the first set of the word game I asked Ronald for an interview, and got an immediate "yes". We planned to have a real face-to-face interview but couldn't get our calendars matched. So the interview was made in the clumsy way - by e-mail. But the answers are still great. For those who want to know more about The Flying Dutchman, I recommend reading Ronald's story and getting to know his brews.

The brewer at work. (© Ronald de Waal)

Who is Ronald de Waal? How did you end up in Finland and being a nomad brewer?

Interesting opening question: Who is Ronald de Waal? :) Ronald is a Dutch guy who has always been curious about life, cultures and people. I ended up in Finland because of love. I went to Spain on holiday and walked into a Finnish blonde. Before I knew what had happened, I was already moving to Finland.

I studied food technology in Holland, one part of which was brewing technology. After my graduation I got a job as a brewer in one of the first craft beer breweries in Holland. So some years later, after walking into that Finnish blonde, I gave up my job and went on an adventure trip to Finland. This was in the year 1992. Finland was in a deep recession that time and work was hard to get. Did all kind of jobs and the funniest experience was being a mermaid in Planet FunFun.

After meeting Juha Lehto who had just opened the first two Kala restaurants in Helsinki we decided that I would brew a house beer for his bars. I would brew them in Holland at my old workplace. The beer I was brewing at that time was a 10 % barley wine which was in that time the strongest and hoppiest beer in Finland. So that was my first gypsy brewing project in the year 1994. In that time not even the word gypsy brewing existed.

What do you enjoy most in being a professional brewer? Are there any downsides?

I enjoy working with passionate people and creating new ideas and products. So to work on ideas and to realize them - and after some time you really see that people are drinking your beers and enjoying them. That is such a great feeling.

The downside is maybe the pressure of having enough time for selling work.

What do you love doing when you're not brewing great beer?

Enjoying the small things in life. Like when you have your coffee and you really go into the moment of joy. Having good conversations, have quality time at home with your loved ones. Go into the forest, walk with the dogs. Love to travel with the camper van and explore nature and different cultures. Then my other passion is coming up: photography.

You've started brewing in the 1990's in Holland. You also brewed Bergzigt for Finnish audience in 1994. What has happened in the beer scene in Holland and in Finland in a little over 20 years? From your point of view, how would you describe the beer culture in Finland now?

There has happened a lot during the last 20 years I would say, especially in Finland. In Holland things have been on hold for a long time. After the Belgium beers arrived in the 80's, not much happened anymore. Only the last 4-5 years Holland has started to open up for other beer styles than only those Belgium ales.

Finland has changed really much. From a very depressed society in the early 90's with not much of a beer selection and people drinking the cheapest beers they could find, to a very vibrant beer booming culture. Finland has a very good beer selection with beers coming from all over the world. Very few countries have this kind of amazing selection. And the Finns are very open now for every beer style. Drinking habits have drastically changed from drinking as much as possible to tasting fine quality products!

You launched The Flying Dutchman project last year and the first beer came available last autumn, right? Can you describe what's "The Flying Dutchman factor" in beer?

Yes, company was launched in July last year and first beer came out in the end of September.

The Flying Dutchman factor is indirectly linked to the old ghost ship which was sailing on the seas forever, by some legends for a seven-year period after another. Traveling, exploring and bringing the stories back to land. In this brewing project I would like to share my stories and act as the Flying Dutchman, brewing in different breweries.

The Flying Dutchman ship was a ghost ship, something you can't put into a box and label it. So it is about myself. As the Flying Dutchman I can't be put into a box: A Dutch guy with a Finnish company, brewing in Belgium - can we make it more complicated? :) So I love the international way of living. Open-minded going through life. Like a wanderer.

The captain and the crew with "Bad Guy" make-up... (© Walt Disney Pictures)

After roughly one year's presence, there are ten beers in The Flying Dutchman's commercial selection. The selection includes brews for many kinds of tastes: there's something for a hophead, something for a sour lover, something for friends of mild pales and something for dark beer hedonists. But every brew has a long, unique and hard-to-remember name. What's the story behind the brews' names? And when can we taste the Chilli Stout that already has a hot name? :)

That is a long process. We are thinking of ideas that are fitting the beer. The name should tell something about the beer. And we try to do it with a smile. We reflect to real life situations. So many breweries are going for the dark and aggressive attitude. We wanted to have a different angle, lighter and happier.

Love the Chilli Stout idea and especially the name! We should play with the idea.

Your Tree-Hugging IPA and Girlfriend Stout - won't repeat the complete names here, sorry - were chosen the best in their styles from Belgium in the World Beer Awards 2016. Congratulations! However, some people might get confused because you're Dutch living in Finland and brewing in Belgium. Of course, since you have lived in Finland for two decades now, people here hopefully recognize you as a Finn-brewer. Are your brews Dutch, Finnish or Belgian, or would you like to throw away the country category?

Thank you! To keep the answer to the question very short: we prefer to keep it open and flowing. :)

Probably the most known brewers in Europe without an own brewery are the Danish Mikkel Borg Bjergsø behind Mikkeller and his "protegés" Tobias Emil Jensen and Tore Gynther behind To Øl. It's told that Mikkel just e-mails recipes to the breweries without taking part in the brewing process in any way. How does it really work between a brewery and a nomad brewer? How do you choose the breweries you work with?

There are so many different ways of brewing beer or being a nomad brewer. Which way you choose is very personal and what fits you most. Rumors are rumors and there will always be rumors how people do their job. I think it has more meaning to look what people like Mikkeller and others have been contributing to the beer culture. Without the nomad brewers we wouldn't have such extreme beers as we do have now. They pushed the limits even further and took the other brewers with.

So some nomad breweries are really doing all the brewing work themself, others do only recipe planning, for some it's a mix of both. Still I don't think this is so important. It's the same when you look to a famous Chef Cook. This famous Cook is thinking and creating idea's. Testing, preparing and trying. Then he comes out with a perfect recipe and he will guide other cooks to prepare the dish under his guidance. It's architecture work.

The breweries with which I partner are carefully selected. I have had a cooperation with De Proef brewery already since 1997. I was in that time with my former company Diamond Beer, one of their first customers. So we have a long history and I know the brewery very well. I like their flexibility to do all kind of batch sizes and their top of the art brewing equipment. The other brewery I use is also very flexible and has also the right size of batches. Both deliver top quality.

For some years there's been a discussion in the beer community about bulk beer vs. craft beer and bad beer vs. good beer. What do you think about the discussion? What is the difference between a bad beer, a good beer and an awesome beer?

I think it has not much meaning to discuss bulk vs craft beer. Every beer is brewed for different groups of consumers. Bulk beer - or let's call them the big lager beers - are skillfully brewed. To brew a clean lager and also of the same quality is difficult task. So if you are into craft beer with much flavour that is fine. If you want just fresh and easy tasting lagers, that is also fine. We need them both.

Taste is very personal. Of course you can talk about good or bad beer when the quality of beer is not as it should be, infected or contaminated beer for example. Otherwise good or bad beer is a question of someones's personal taste and preference.

By the way, what's your personal favourite beer and why? (This is the easiest question in the world for a beer lover, I know ;) ) 

Haha, yeah, easy question. :) Pfff. Impossible to say. Like you know as well, I'm sure. It depends on your mood, feeling, season, if you are in love or depressed. So every moment has another favourite beer which is just for THAT moment the best.

I know you don't want to hear this kind of answer. I can tell you something else. After tasting many different beers and going from a great Stout to a great IPA to a great Sour, there's one beer style I really like to go back to. And that is British ale. Nicely hopped and a balanced malt body - always a great pint!

... and the captain with the usual good guy look. (© Ronald de Waal)

How are your experiences with Finnish beer and breweries? Are the Finnish breweries in general bad or awful?

Finnish breweries are in general great. We have seen a big increase in breweries last couple of years. Much passion going on and very creative beers have come out. I have found several breweries which I really like and which I can really trust on quality.

If you could choose any brewery from Finland for one collaboration brew, what would the brewery be and what kind of beer would you like the brew with them?

I have a few ideas with a some breweries in Finland. So far I just haven't had the time to go deeper into this. My focus has been first to get my basic selection of beers ready. We have come out with ten new beers in just ten months now. That was a great pressure in that short time. Hope that next year we will have more time to think about those ideas in detail.

The beer style which could be brewed is very depending on the brewery where we do it. So I really can't speculate about this before we really know more where the beer will be brewed.

What can we wait from The Flying Dutchman next? Bergzigt 2.0, perhaps? I wasn't into beer in 1994 and would have been underaged then, so at least I'm waiting for the comeback.

I'm working a few new ideas. We will have some new sour beer next spring. We are doing some very interesting research work on the moment to find the right lactobacillus culture. I can tell you more about this in the beginning of next year.

Bergzigt. Many people ask after it. Every beer festival I visit in Finland, there is always somebody asking when it will come back. You never know. Maybe one day.

I have been thinking every now and then about Bergzigt. In that time it was very special. Something we hadn't seen before. Nowadays it wouldn't be that special. Our taste buds have developed so much and we have tasted so many great beers. But it could return to showcase a classic style from the "old" days. Not an extreme beer for today but brewing the beer to show that this beer made a change in the early 90's.

Could you select a song for Ronald de Waal and The Flying Dutchman Nomad Brewery? Can you tell us, why this song is your choice?

I like your questions. The song is actually easy. It's a song from the band Mr. Big and called Goin' Where the Wind Blows. This song is very special for me and represents a lot of feelings and experiences I've had in life. Every time you make a big change in your life you need to trust on the fact that the only thing you want to follow is the wind. And the wind will always bring you to the right place.

Also during the period in my life when I was traveling a lot, I felt very free and literally went where the wind was blowing. That was such a wonderful feeling. This song is just so beautiful! And funny enough it really fits to the Flying Dutchman as well.

Thanks for a nice interview, Ronald! We'll keep in touch.

Thanks for your support, Janne. I love your way of writing and the humor you use in your articles. That's what we need in life. That's what our message is about: Hoppiness is a way of life.

Ölbeat & Brewer's Choice

There are so well-grounded arguments behind Ronald's own choice that I don't bring Richard Wagner's The Flying Dutchman or even some other piece very distantly, if at all, connected to the legend available as other options. They will be available for later purposes*.      

Mr. Big: Goin' Where the Wind Blows (YouTube)

From the 1996 album Hey Man, the song was written by Jeff Martin and André Pessis.

* E.g. as the background music for the immediate shaving of all male readers' idiotic Movember fish sticks trying to act a moustache. Do it, now!

Ölmönger Special: Interview with Brouwerij de Molen

Bodegraven, an about 20 thousand inhabitants' town near the Haag in the Netherlands, is the home of one of the best breweries in the world. Originally situated completely in the town's landmark, the windmill De Arkduif (meaning 'ark dove', from the story of Noah's ark), Brouwerij de Molen - translation: the Mill Brewery - has today the head brewery down the street. The mill is still in used as a brewery for small batches.

© Brouwerij de Molen

Brouwerij de Molen was founded in 2004. During the first 11-12 operative years the brewery and its beers have been awarded uncountable times - e.g. as Ratebeer's best brewery in the Netherlands since 2008. The brewery is known for curious and experimental view on beer: the barrel-aged versions of different brands are known around the world. Probably the most known De Molen beer, Hel en Verdoemenis (Hell & Damnation), has had at least 18 different barrel-aged or spiced versions, many of them still in production. Mindblowing craftbeer is truly made there - according to the motto on the brewery's website.

© Brouwerij de Molen

I asked people from Brouwerij de Molen to answer some questions about the brewery, brewing and beer by e-mail. I got the brewery's co-owner John Brus to the other end of the line and luckily, he was more than ready to answer and provide me with some pictures from the brewery. Without any more hesitation and delay let's go to the interview.  

* * *

Hello, John. Tell us about yourself. What's the story behind you? How and why did you become a professional brewer?

I'm John Brus, co-owner of Brouwerij de Molen in the Netherlands. I studied computer science and worked in that field for a long time.

Since the age of 15 - 16 I've been very much interested in beer and brewing. Starting with the first beer I ever drank I saved the bottle, and the next bottle turned out to be a different beer. It immediately caught my interest and I continued searching for new beers and flavours. Saving the bottles until my mom forced me to through away the 300 - 400 bottles/cans stacked in my room. From the age of 17 I started brewing beer at home together with a couple of friends. After I finished my study, I got a job, married and children and stopped homebrewing. Too much fun things to do and too little time.

In 2006 I became friends with Menno Olivier who founded Brouwerij de Molen in 2004. Our mutual interest in craft-beer and brewing in general draw us together. After a while we started talking about letting the brewery grow from just a brewpub with export sales to a grown-up brewery. In 2009 we organized the first Borefts Beer Festival together and in 2010 I actually started working in the brewery. Very eager to do professionally what I've always been doing as an amateur. Never regretted it for one minute.

What are the best things about being a brewer? Are there any unpleasant sides?

The best thing as a brewer for me is that I can do what I always wanted to do. I know when but I don't know why the 'virus' got me, but beer is my life.

I breathe beer, I talk beer, I wake up and go to bed with it.

For a craft-brewer there’s a big extra advantage: you get to travel a lot and meet wonderful people. Those are number 2 and 3 on my list of best things to do.

Being a craft-brewer has one unpleasant side. We love experimenting and people actually expect this from us. But experimenting means making mistakes - or better said: some flavours don't turn out 100% as you expected them or most people aren't ready for it yet. As a brewer and perfectionist I always want it to be... well perfect. But you can't please everyone.

© Brouwerij de Molen

Brouwerij de Molen was founded in 2004 by your partner Menno Olivier. You joined him in 2009. After that the brewery has moved to a new and bigger facility and received international recognition and worldwide success.  What makes Brouwerij de Molen different from other breweries in Netherlands, Europe and the world?

In the Netherlands we were - and still are - the pioneer for brewing craftbeers. The definition of craftbeer for me is making progressive beers, experimenting, trying new brewing methods and ingredients, brewing beers with more flavour without going over the edge and revolting against the flattening of flavours for the masses that has been going on for decades in most countries.

Worldwide this has been going on since the 90's, starting in the USA. Our beers are different because they are flavourful to the extreme yet always well balanced. We can brew according to the Reinheitsgebot and we experiment a lot from grasshoppers in an IPA to combining styles with special ingredients, barrel-aging and re-fermenting with Brett.

How would you describe the “De Molen character” in beer? Name three of your beers that bring out this character best.

I cannot. We brew from light bitters to crazy barrel-aged barley wines. So I must keep the character very general: our beers always have a body and are well balanced and flavourful. The three examples are: Vuur & Vlam (India Pale Ale), Bommen & Granaten (barley wine) and any barrel aged version of Hel & Verdoemenis (Imperial Stout).

© Brouwerij de Molen

You’ve planned to expand your production from 4.500 to 25.000 hectolitres annually. What are your expectations on your brewery’s expansion? Can De Molen fans in Finland expect more availability for your beers after the expansion?

In 2015 we already reached 7.000 hectolitres. But we had to work on every inch of the equipment, process and brewers to reach that amount.

It's hard to tell what effect the expansion will have on Finland. We don't have a marketing plan. We brew what we can and it's sold to those importers who order it. It's a luxury position I know and maybe someday we’ll start making plans for sales. For now I'd advice any Finnish beer lover to ask for it, so more will reach Finland. :-)

There has been some discussion about small breweries and craftbeer “against” big breweries and bulk beer. Recently the discussion has leaned towards “bad beer” vs. “good beer” opposition. How would you define good beer? What makes the difference between bad, good and damn excellent beers? What are the best other breweries’ beers you've tasted recently?

Some people, maybe I could call them purists, talk about small against big and craft - as in hand labour - against automated macro brewing. I'd call that bullshit. Most craft brewers have new and top-notch equipment meaning an automated brew house. Most highly appreciated US craft brewers are huge compared to European craft brewers. Does it make them any worse? Not in my opinion.

Good against bad beer is even trickier. I know dozens or more microbreweries that brew some awful stuff they call beer. For me it has always been revolting against the flattening of flavours.

A long time ago there were many breweries with just as many different beers, styles and flavours. A can assume a lot of them making bad beer as well. Some breweries took control. Probably because they were a little better, they got more money and devoured all those small breweries. Bad for the owners of those small breweries but even worse for the beer drinker. Not at first, when they still got better beer. But as the story continued, marketers and financial departments started running the breweries instead of those creative beer loving brewers. Resulting in uniform beers across the globe because “everybody has to like them” and “it must be as efficiently produced as possible”.

We're taking back control, those beer loving brewers. We want flavour, we want diversity, we want to be surprised now and then.

The best beers I've tasted the last couple of months are from Laugar (Spain), Pöhjala (Estonia), Gänstaller Bräu (Germany), Brew by Numbers (England) and Fyne Ales (Scotland).

© Brouwerij de Molen

Besides the high quality of products, De Molen is known for barrel-aged beer. Beer experimenting - challenging to the ordinary means of brewing – has become more common in recent years. What are in your opinion the pros and the cons of beer experimenting? What would you consider as going over the limit?

There is no con against experimenting. We need to experiment as humans in general in my opinion or we get stuck. The results of an experiment can of course be disappointing. But then you either throw it away, or decide to give a small crowd the opportunity to taste how an experiment like that turns out.

You’ve planned new brewery collaborations with Estonian Pōhjala and American Monk’s Café. Personally I’m very interested about your Pōhjala project which involves Ardbeg barrels: there are many personal favorites around. What effect have your collaborations had to De Molen’s own brewery selection? Can you give examples?

The Pöhjala collaboration is still a plan but will happen for sure! Just last weekend we released another Ardbeg aged beer: Tsarina Esra Ardbeg BA Brett. Crazy beer yet so good!

It's hard to pinpoint what a certain collaboration project does to our own selection. We always learn and take this information back home and use it. But I can't give examples.

The other way around I can give some examples. Fyne Ales has taken our collab called Hills & Mills into production. And there are several breweries – Struise, Haandbryggeriet, Marble – still brewing our Vuur & Vlam according to our recipe.

If a Finnish microbrewery would show interest in collaboration with you or De Molen, what kind of beer would you suggest to them?

I'd love to make a Sahti together with a Finnish brewery someday :-)

But there are so many collaborations we still want to do and some many other things as well. I'm afraid it will have to wait.

© Brouwerij de Molen

Let’s play fortune teller: What will be the big craftbeer trends in 2016 and 2017? How will they affect De Molen’s future plans?

Hahaha. :) I don't like to tell the future and I don't like to react to trends. We do what we want to do and of course can be influenced by anyone we meet or by anything we see. Our main goal for 2016 is to expand the brewery.

In 2017? Maybe sour ales will finally become more wanted in Europe. I know this has already been going on in the US and Scandinavian countries, but the rest is still a little behind.

The Ölmönger blog is about matching good beer with good music. Have you brewed beers for artists or bands? Which artist or band would you like to brew a brand beer if you could choose? What kind and style would it be?

We have brewed a beer (American Pale Ale) for a Dutch artist called Tim Knol. He's a rocky folk-singer. We were asked by John Coffey, a metal band, but had to refuse because lack of capacity. Which was sad.

Personally I would love to brew a beer for Elbow or Guy Garvey himself. I know they are beer lovers and to me they’re one of the best live artists in the world – even though I'm more of a metal-head myself. It should probably be a hoppy yet traditional IPA for them.

That's all for now. Thanks for the interview, John. I wish you and Brouwerij de Molen success in the years to come.

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So, next we'll get back to the usual business with five selected De Molen beers and Ölbeats - one beer and Ölbeat per day starting tomorrow. Since this is a special occasion, there will be a twist in the blogposts. What will it be? Wait for tomorrow and see.